The death of an insitution

To be clear, I will continue my support of the Girl Scouts.
 
Are you upset with the name change or the fact that they allowed girls in 5 years ago? Technically back then they changed the name of the program from Boy Scouts to Scouts BSA.
 
Was never in scouts. Living where I do and working and having the hobbies I had I probably learned more without....that came without the diddling. That's what killed it, and it deserved to die.
 
so are they going to keep girl scouts of 'merica? regardless of who they let join either group?
 
The BSA enrollment numbers have been steadily falling for a long time. They seem to struggle to stay relevant in the modern age, when more and more kids shun the outdoors aside from sports. Not sure another name change is going to have any impact other than costing them lots of money to re-badge (see what I did there) all of their stationery and such with the new name and logo.
 
I have mixed feelings about the name change. I was a Cub Scout, then a Webelo, then a Boy Scout. It was an important and very beneficial part of my life and the lives of a lot of other boys back then. Out adult leaders were, without a single exception, absolutely first rate men who contributed greatly to our character and education.

It was distressing to hear, years ago, about the abuse and more so the absolutely indefensible handling of it. The program that had contributed so much to so many millions of people is now synonymous, in many people’s minds, with that and nothing more. It’s a real shame and a tragedy, brought on by the senior so-called “leadership” of the organization that ignored the most basic concepts upon which it was founded.

I doubt anything can save it now from fading into irrelevance and obscurity. It’s not that we no longer need the Boy Scouts - the real Boy Scouts, not the sick punchline we’re left with - but apparently we just can’t have nice things any more.
 
As many others, I gained much from scouting. I accomplished almost everything possible and our troop was large and vibrant. One summer, a man known for his philanthropy invited our troop to use his olympic-sized pool at his estate. Each week dozens of local boy scout troops enjoyed his pool and the extensive grounds. He learned that I was good at drafting and hired me to generate some plans for an office building he was thinking of building. During that initial meeting he moved around the table to sit against me. I was creeped out and spoke with my Dad. The next day the adult leaders of our troop had a meeting with the council leadership and no scouts swam in his pool again. Years later when I heard about the allegations, I realized just how fortunate we had been with involved adults carefully guiding and watching over us. If more scout troops had leaders like ours, this sorry decline of a once great organization might not have happened.
 
Scouting is important andf fantastic. And there are many places where it is thriving.

San Francisco, for example (contrary to the hype from a certain news org which claims to be balanced, but isn'tIMG_5942.JPGIMG_6007.JPG) Troop 14, the oldest troop with the same sponsor west of the Mississippi River is 110 years old and going strong.
Over my son's time in 14, it went from about 55 boys to mid 90s. Running a troop that big got too difficult (coordinating rides, permits, etc), so they had to institute a waiting list to join for boys who hadn't been webelows.
My son is 3 years removed from his eagle, 4 years from running his troop of 90+ boys including leading them with map and compass in snow at elevation.
Boypower into Manpower.
 
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Troop 22 BSA, West TN 1957. The town’s elite men were very much involved leaders: doctor, dentist, businessmen, all watching over their happy sons. The meetings were held at the airport my dad managed. Good memories of times long gone.
 
so are they going to keep girl scouts of 'merica? regardless of who they let join either group?
Girl Scouts of America is a separate organization . It has its own structure.

I gather it is not helpful to GSA that BSA recruits girls away from GSA programs.
 
I guess nothing lasts forever and don’t want to sound like a grumpy old man, but am not sure opening Boy Scouts to girls was the right thing to do. 11-14 is a crazy time for young people; body changes, middle school. A single-sex environment,a place where you can grow and not worry about trying to impress the other sex, was good for me and I suspect many boys. Explorers was always co-ed, that started at age 14, by then young people have matured, albeit not completely. I did the entire scout thing from 1969 to 1979: Cubs, Webelos, Scouts, Explorers. It seems we as a nation are hell-bent on destroying everything that was good.
 
I guess nothing lasts forever and don’t want to sound like a grumpy old man, but am not sure opening Boy Scouts to girls was the right thing to do. 11-14 is a crazy time for young people; body changes, middle school. A single-sex environment,a place where you can grow and not worry about trying to impress the other sex, was good for me and I suspect many boys. Explorers was always co-ed, that started at age 14, by then young people have matured, albeit not completely. I did the entire scout thing from 1969 to 1979: Cubs, Webelos, Scouts, Explorers. It seems we as a nation are hell-bent on destroying everything that was good.
My understanding is that girls will be in separate troops from the boys. There may be some overlap at organized events, but I think the idea was to separate them (for obvious reasons, teenagers on camping trips?) for most of the activities. I'm not completely sure of the details though, my son is only a Cub Scout, and the girls are in separate dens from the boys so we only see them at Pack level events. Mostly they are siblings of boy cub scouts.
 
The BSA enrollment numbers have been steadily falling for a long time. They seem to struggle to stay relevant in the modern age, when more and more kids shun the outdoors aside from sports. Not sure another name change is going to have any impact other than costing them lots of money to re-badge (see what I did there) all of their stationery and such with the new name and logo.
One of the things I'm seeing is that sports (especially travel sports!) have dominated the suburban family scene, making it near impossible to engage in scouting events.
 
Its a complicated phenomena IMHO. How many of the boys are in divorced or single-parent households where the woman has custody? The traveling sports aspect has already been mentioned. Lacking motivation to be outdoors seems like another one.



I don't like that mens/boys support groups are dissolving into something else but on the other hand all it takes is starting a new one. These things don't have to national clubs, no reason to avoid starting something local.
 
….I gather it is not helpful to GSA that BSA recruits girls away from GSA programs.

Did BSA actively ‘recruit girls away’ or were they pressured to let girls in who wanted to join a boys club? I’m asking because I don’t know and would have to think it wasn’t the former.
 
One of the things I'm seeing is that sports (especially travel sports!) have dominated the suburban family scene, making it near impossible to engage in scouting events.

I'll go ahead and poke that bear, since you opened the gate. I think travel sports will eventually be the downfall of youth sports as well. I've been coaching my boys' baseball teams for the past 6 years (two seasons per year for the past 4 years (begrudgingly)) and basketball teams for the past 5 years (one season per year). We have dodged the 'travel ball' bullet in both sports and will continue to do so - a lot for the reason you mentioned above - the time suck. I don't know how parents justify practicing 10 hours per week and then travel to destinations hours away to spend an entire weekend watching sometimes as young as 6U kids 'play' (and I use that term loosely for all ages <12 y/o) baseball. Less than 1% of these kids will leverage their skills to pay for college, and less than .01% will make it to a point of getting paid to play professionally. I don't understand how you can justify excluding yourself from SO many other activities of life to focus on one thing so whole heartedly. It would be interesting to know the incremental increase in divorce rate for families that spend X number of years in travel ball programs - I would bet that it is a non-zero number. I have also personally witnessed kids that are so stressed out about their performance on the field/court that they turn into a nutcase off of the field/court. There is no justification for forcing non-stop performance demands on kids that young other than to try to fulfill parents' desires to re-live their perceived missed glory days. I expect that when this generation of travel-ballers get older, they will look back and say "There's no way I'm putting my kid through that mess." and that will be the end of the travel ball world as we know it today.

As for the OP: I never did scouts. I remember in first grade they did a presentation and sent home a form to sign up if we wanted. It was in the fall, and my parents said "You can do scouts or basketball, but not both." I chose basketball (which ended up paying for 2 years of college for me, so it was a good choice). However, that didn't keep me from being in the woods any time I was at my grandparents' house or learning how to do stuff. I would tag along to a few of my cousins' Cub Scout events and I don't remember ever doing anything there that made me think "Oh man! They do/learn so much cool stuff - I wish I was here more!". I'm sure it's like anything else - get into the right group and it's a great experience, but knowing the people that were in the scouts where I grew up, it was not a positive differentiator in life skills or personality.

Just my .02...
 
Did BSA actively ‘recruit girls away’ or were they pressured to let girls in who wanted to join a boys club? I’m asking because I don’t know and would have to think it wasn’t the former.

IIRC, there were girls that wanted to do the more outdoorsy stuff that the BSA was doing and asked to join. To me, it seemed like a failure on GSA to not meet the needs of the girls they were there to mentor, but for whatever reason it turned into a 'exclusionary' issue for BSA rather than failure to include requested activities by GSA.
 
One of the things I'm seeing is that sports (especially travel sports!) have dominated the suburban family scene, making it near impossible to engage in scouting events.
I'm sure there's a segment of the increased intensity of sports that impacts BSA. I never had an interest in Boy Scouts growing up, and 95% of my friends were not in it, either. We were out exploring the woods, building tents, constructing ramps with our father's tools, or playing sports with multiple practices per week. Not much time back then for BSA even if I had the interest for it.

I think a lot of the BSA/GSA problem is that many don't even know what they do, other than selling popcorn and cookies.
 
I got a lot out of the Boy Scouts that I still use today.
But I can't imagine what it would have been like if girls joined us on our camping trips.
Perhaps boys today are different than we were. More medicated perhaps.
 
I never did boy scouts, but was in the Aviation Explorer program in high school. It helped me get into this industry.

As others have mentioned, I think there have been many issues leading to the downfall of BSA. One was the abuse scandals. Two is the draw of other activities.

Another I haven't seen mentioned yet is the societal move away from organized religion. In my hometown, nearly all of the BSA troops seemed to be centered on several local churches. Those same churches today are struggling to maintain membership themselves, and support and attendance of their BSA troop is gone.
 
I gather it is not helpful to GSA that BSA recruits girls away from GSA programs.

That's mostly bc GS is booring.

In most countries, scouting has been coed for a long time. I was a member of a coed troop in Germany 45 years ago. Keeping girls out of scouting is a unique american hangup, glad it's for the most part over.
 
I'll go ahead and poke that bear, since you opened the gate. I think travel sports will eventually be the downfall of youth sports as well. I've been coaching my boys' baseball teams for the past 6 years (two seasons per year for the past 4 years (begrudgingly)) and basketball teams for the past 5 years (one season per year). We have dodged the 'travel ball' bullet in both sports and will continue to do so - a lot for the reason you mentioned above - the time suck. I don't know how parents justify practicing 10 hours per week and then travel to destinations hours away to spend an entire weekend watching sometimes as young as 6U kids 'play' (and I use that term loosely for all ages <12 y/o) baseball. Less than 1% of these kids will leverage their skills to pay for college, and less than .01% will make it to a point of getting paid to play professionally. I don't understand how you can justify excluding yourself from SO many other activities of life to focus on one thing so whole heartedly. It would be interesting to know the incremental increase in divorce rate for families that spend X number of years in travel ball programs - I would bet that it is a non-zero number. I have also personally witnessed kids that are so stressed out about their performance on the field/court that they turn into a nutcase off of the field/court. There is no justification for forcing non-stop performance demands on kids that young other than to try to fulfill parents' desires to re-live their perceived missed glory days. I expect that when this generation of travel-ballers get older, they will look back and say "There's no way I'm putting my kid through that mess." and that will be the end of the travel ball world as we know it today.

As for the OP: I never did scouts. I remember in first grade they did a presentation and sent home a form to sign up if we wanted. It was in the fall, and my parents said "You can do scouts or basketball, but not both." I chose basketball (which ended up paying for 2 years of college for me, so it was a good choice). However, that didn't keep me from being in the woods any time I was at my grandparents' house or learning how to do stuff. I would tag along to a few of my cousins' Cub Scout events and I don't remember ever doing anything there that made me think "Oh man! They do/learn so much cool stuff - I wish I was here more!". I'm sure it's like anything else - get into the right group and it's a great experience, but knowing the people that were in the scouts where I grew up, it was not a positive differentiator in life skills or personality.

Just my .02...
I had a similarly-worded post queued up but yours captures it pretty well. I grew up playing baseball/soccer/football, my sister played softball/soccer. I never did anything in sports collegiately, but my sister went to college on a full-ride for soccer AND softball. We spent endless hours at softball/soccer tournaments, some of them many states away, and my father was the head coach for the softball (they were pretty elite, won a national championship around age 12-14). However, when we weren't doing sports we were usually at the lake swimming/fishing/skiing or working on projects. I learned basic skills like carpentry from building a few porches/decks with my father, learned mechanical skills by doing oil changes/brake jobs/etc. on the family cars, learned about wilderness stuff from living with a greenbelt/woods behind our house and spending countless hours walking through the creeks and exploring everywhere our feet would take us. I don't personally think the BSA would have added much to my childhood experience, but I know that many kids don't have the same access to those types of activities, especially those kids who live in dense cities/suburbs.
 
That's mostly bc GS is booring.

In most countries, scouting has been coed for a long time. I was a member of a coed troop in Germany 45 years ago. Keeping girls out of scouting is a unique american hangup, glad it's for the most part over.
They've had Venture/Explorer Scouts for a long time, which was definitely co-ed.
 
I was a Cub Scout and Boy Scout. Mostly for the camping and other outdoors stuff. I never had the desire to go for Eagle as a Boy Scout or all that jazz but I did enjoy the activities. In fact, I only made Second Class Scout and was happy with that. Sort of a permanent Cpl Klinger. Still remember the Scout Oath for some strange reason.
 
I never did boy scouts, but was in the Aviation Explorer program in high school. It helped me get into this industry.

As others have mentioned, I think there have been many issues leading to the downfall of BSA. One was the abuse scandals. Two is the draw of other activities.

Another I haven't seen mentioned yet is the societal move away from organized religion. In my hometown, nearly all of the BSA troops seemed to be centered on several local churches. Those same churches today are struggling to maintain membership themselves, and support and attendance of their BSA troop is gone.

Many churches (including mine) withdrew from Scouting support when the sexual abuse issues hit the press. Churches didn't want to be associated with that mess.

Plus, the general public didn't see the abuse problem and the admission of girls as two seperate things. Instead, I think many people looked at BSA and thought, "So there's a huge sex abuse problem with the Scouts, and now they're going coed. Yeah, that'll fix it...."

It is a shame. I enjoyed my time in Scouts, especially Order of the Arrow, back in the 1970s. Back then, most of the other boys lived nearby and our leaders were fathers from our neighborhood. Everybody knew everybody, and if there had ever been an abuse issue, legal problems would have been the least of the offender's worries, as our fathers probably wouldn't have left behind enough pieces of the baztard to sue anyway.
 
I was pretty heavily involved in Scouts from Cub to Eagle and a summer camp counselor for 3 years. Had a ton of fun and got quite a bit out of the program - our troop was a really good one with a good batch of parents to foster the group. My Dad was pretty involved as well, up to a commissioner level in regional leadership. Most of the programs downfall in my mind comes at that regional to national leadership - Dad would probably still be involved/donate if he hadn't been fed up with total dysfunction at that council level(and he was career military - very good at dealing with BS). Something about a non profit where national leaders pocket >1MM/yr while the organization loses any sense of its purpose(cough...AOPA...cough) bums me out.
Personally I wouldn't recommend the program today or frankly for the last 20 years - which is sad as I saw it benefit a lot of kids whose parent(s) could barely tie a shoelace.
The nitty gritty as well is that BSA was fairly heavily funded/subsidized by the LDS church. Part of the fallout of the absolutely horrendous handling of abuse was that cash flow screeched to a halt.

Side note - travel sports. I focused on BSA instead as one of our XC moves as a kid(military) I "tried out" for soccer where we moved. I had been used to rec league for fun, but in the new spot if you weren't ultra premier select league by the time you could walk, you may as well quit at life. At the ripe age of 12 even I recognized that was ridiculous and I'd rather go camping. To each their own I suppose, though I too am curious what the next generation chooses to do in terms of spending many thousands of dollars a year and thousands of road miles for pre-teens to play sportsball.
 
IMO, the push to include girls was driven by a desire to increase membership by opening up to an entire demographic equal in size to their existing market. I don't think it was to be woke, or anything like that. As a Cub Scout leader, I've seen dues to the regional and national organizations climb much faster than inflation. Scouting is, after all, a business.
 
I grew up in a rural urban area barely in the city limits, that is one side of the road was were the houses were, and the other side was farm/ranch land. The neighborhood had 4 streets, then another mile until the real city started. At around 10 years of age we would saddle up the horses, ride down to the river and spend the weekend without adult supervision. We had all been taught by our dads on how to be safe on our own. We gathered fire wood, built fires, cooked for ourselves, went swimming in the river and many other things, but we took care of the horses first. We never burned down the trees or drowned in the river. We divided up the chores as well as chose one kid to be sort of a safety person. Remember just about all our dads graduated high school and went straight into WWII or Korea, so we learned that mindset. Pretty much all our camping gear came from the Army/Navy surplus store, which was owned by a guy called ''Fats''. He was rather portly and always sat in a chair, usually his leather recliner. We would go to see Fats and ask him if he had something particular, and he would furrow his brow, scratch his forehead then tell us where to look. We would find what we wanted then run back to Fats and ask him how much it cost. The small stuff was usually 10 to 25cents. On the bigger stuff he would ask us how much we had, and wouldn't you know it the price was always the same amount we had in our pockets.!! Fats had a couple 55 gallon drums and they were always full of the old steel beer cans. I never figured out where those cans came from until years later.

One camping trip, a kid was eaten by a bear. Ok, not really, it was just his hat. Ok, It wasn't eaten by a bear, it was lost in the river, but it was a really nice hat...

To us kids scouting was for city kids, possibly the ones without dads.
 
I was in Scouts, both my kids (1 girl, 1 boy) are too. Couple thoughts.

Scouting is not really coed, there are separate boy and girl troops.

My son, loved it, especially the high adventure camps, Philmont twice, Northern Tier, and Seabase.

My daughter loves it too. especially the shooting and merit badge parts. She should wrap up her Eagle this summer. No interest in Philmont, but loved Seabase. I will say one thing I've been impressed with, is the girls troop (at least ours), is held to the same standard as the boys. She was in Girl Scouts for a couple years and found it pretty lame. The example she uses is the cooking badge. In BSA it was 5 days camping cooking in Dutch ovens, open fires, fish they caught, and more. In Girl Scouts it was 5 meetings and they cooked a frozen pizza.

I agree with Brad, i think opening it to girls was a business decision vice woke. That said, the National organization is a mess and is all in on the woke train. Costs have doubled in the last year and it's caused a lot of departures by the folks that could benefit the most. It's a great program, but sadly, I agree they have lost their way and it's likely dying.

As to travel sports, most certainly they compete for a rare resource, time. Both kids do travel ice hockey. My son stopped this year to focus on building flight hours but my daughter is still all in at a pretty high level. There are trade-offs for sure. They don't get much TV, and tbh, I doubt they could tell one Kardashian from the other. Their burden to bear.
 
They've had Venture/Explorer Scouts for a long time, which was definitely co-ed.

....and unless you live in one of be few locations with a troop unavailable.

Scouting is a very local thing. My daughter tagged along with a gaggle of other sisters in my son's troop, but they were never allowed to do any of the sanctioned events. Eventually they peeled off into other activities. I'm not gonna drive an hour to find a venturer troop.
 
I think most opinions about the "diddling" scandal seem to be formed based on what's in press releases from plaintiff's lawyers. The churches that I know of that backed off of chartering didn't do it because of the specter of the scandal, but liability and indemnity issues and the BSA bankruptcy.

Another factor many are not aware of is that the LDS Church was one of the largest chartering orgs for BSA units. But it formed it's own alternative program when BSA started allowing gay and then transgender scouts because of lawsuits.

That's been a big factor in membership decline, and the bankruptcy and rising insurance costs have led to increasing membership fees. It's a bad deal.

The program is still great, and valuable. The addition of girls really isn't even a factor. For one, they're not really that integrated. If anything, that's been a detriment. And as someone else pointed out, almost everywhere else, scouting has been coed forever.
 
I grew up in a rural urban area barely in the city limits, that is one side of the road was were the houses were, and the other side was farm/ranch land. The neighborhood had 4 streets, then another mile until the real city started. At around 10 years of age we would saddle up the horses, ride down to the river and spend the weekend without adult supervision. We had all been taught by our dads on how to be safe on our own. We gathered fire wood, built fires, cooked for ourselves, went swimming in the river and many other things, but we took care of the horses first. We never burned down the trees or drowned in the river. We divided up the chores as well as chose one kid to be sort of a safety person. Remember just about all our dads graduated high school and went straight into WWII or Korea, so we learned that mindset. Pretty much all our camping gear came from the Army/Navy surplus store, which was owned by a guy called ''Fats''. He was rather portly and always sat in a chair, usually his leather recliner. We would go to see Fats and ask him if he had something particular, and he would furrow his brow, scratch his forehead then tell us where to look. We would find what we wanted then run back to Fats and ask him how much it cost. The small stuff was usually 10 to 25cents. On the bigger stuff he would ask us how much we had, and wouldn't you know it the price was always the same amount we had in our pockets.!! Fats had a couple 55 gallon drums and they were always full of the old steel beer cans. I never figured out where those cans came from until years later.

One camping trip, a kid was eaten by a bear. Ok, not really, it was just his hat. Ok, It wasn't eaten by a bear, it was lost in the river, but it was a really nice hat...

To us kids scouting was for city kids, possibly the ones without dads.
Patrick McManus and Grogan's war surplus lives :D
 
Many churches (including mine) withdrew from Scouting support when the sexual abuse issues hit the press. Churches didn't want to be associated with that mess.
Ironic, given that the Church is probably one of the few organisations with a bigger abuse problem than the scouts.
 
Honestly, as it is, I'm surprised it's still going at all. The program is a sad shell of what it is supposed to be.

I was a Cub Scout all the way through to WEBELOS then we moved..so I never did WEBLOS. Later I joined a BS troop for a year or so. This was back in the 1980's...just I didn't enjoy it.

Fast forward to much more recently, when my son was in the 1st grade (he's now 18 and just finished his Freshamn year of college...so not all that recent I suppose)
I spent time as a Scouter... and I really took a deep dive into the program. Over the years I severved as an Asst Den Leader, Asst Cub Master, Cub Master, Troop Committee, Asst Den Leader again, and ended my time serving as Troop Treasurer....being careful to stay out of my son's way. I was trying to firmly make it his journey, not mine. Sadly too many parents didn't have that same goal. Eventually, my son dropped out, a year or so after he joined the troop. It just wasn't fun...much like my experience way back in the 1980's. I dropped out when he did.

SoonerAviator pointed out their struggle to stay relevant. I see that a significant variable
BUT
I'm convinced that the real downfall of the program is the helicopter parent.
All the parents were well intentioned... those very few of us that volunteered and even those that absolutely did not volunteer. Still, there's something about our culture that just would not allow an understanding of what the program was meant to be...what it could have been for those kids....

I took a deep dive into the history of the program and did ton of reading and study and I learned what the program at the Boy Scout Troop level could be...and I wanted that for my son!
So many troops claim to be Boy Lead... which is a key fundamental of the program...but I'd venture to guess that significantly less than 1% of the troops out there were boy lead....and not many more troops than that are anything more than let's say "senior cub scouts"

Yes, the relevance thing is huge...but if the boys were allowed to decide and lead their own path...allowed to discover all that it could bring...and allowed to do adventurous things that are fun...even down to doing boy-only activities without adults deciding and directing and watching and teaching.... I'm convinced that they would have fun and the program would have self-perpetuated.
 
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