BasicMed expansion?

WDD said:
So yes, I respectfully disagree. The data I see shows Basic Med is fine and the 3rd class requirement is unnessary.
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There's a flaw in this logic. Every pilot who has BasicMed qualified for a Class 3 at some point. The idea that BasicMed's success proves we don't need Class 3 is not supportable on this basis.
 
StraightnLevel said:
There's a flaw in this logic. Every pilot who has BasicMed qualified for a Class 3 at some point. The idea that BasicMed's success proves we don't need Class 3 is not supportable on this basis.
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The class 3 requirement prior to basic med definitely muddies the data analysis for comparative performance of class 3 and basic med. There are likely ways to control for that (although we may not have enough data for statistical significance after those controls are done) but most basic comparisons I’ve seen have not attempted to do that.

Not opining a position one way or another but agreeing that basic comparisons of the two systems aren’t as conclusive as they seem on their face because of this and other confounding variables.
 
StraightnLevel said:
There's a flaw in this logic. Every pilot who has BasicMed qualified for a Class 3 at some point. The idea that BasicMed's success proves we don't need Class 3 is not supportable on this basis.
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Except that
1- the time frame of one having to get a 3rd class goes back so far that it’s not relevant.

2 - Sport Pilots flying without a 3rd class are a good susbstitute to show it’s not dangerous

3 - can’t prove a negative. And ironically, it’s never been proven that a 3rd class has proven useful. Its expert opinion, conjecture, and common sense, but no data.

And we have data that show drivers license works just fine. Actually, allowing flying on drivers licenses on heavier wing loaded / more stable airplanes such as a 172 would further decrease the accident rate.

This issue is about GA pilots flying Skyhawks and maybe Skylanes with limited speed and seating. We’re not pulling Gs dog fighting, hitting carrier decks, flying nuclear bombers or flying airliners.
 
WDD said:
the time frame of one having to get a 3rd class goes back so far that it’s not relevant.
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On this one point, that’s not exactly true. While it is true that for a pilot who last got a class 3 in 2006, obtaining that medical likely has almost no bearing on their current medical condition, any new pilot still has to get a class 3 before using basic med.

If all pilots on basic med had almost 20 years since their last class 3, I’d agree that the impact would likely be negligible and a basic back to back comparison is more applicable. But you have a distribution of times since the last class 3 due to the requirement of getting one prior to using basic med. there are pilots on basic med, contributing to the basic med stats, who last got a class 3 a year ago, 2 years ago, 3 years ago etc all the way back to 2006. Hence my statement that there are confounding variables. The two systems are more intertwined, from a data perspective, than it may seem at first blush.
 
AKiss20 said:
If all pilots on basic med had almost 20 years since their last class 3
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Those would be the pilots flying under the Sport Pilot rules. The FAA (or anyone else) does not know how many of those there are, but I know for a fact that there are more than one.
 
I honestly think this boils down to -

GA pilots flying under Basic Med limitations are not quite that special. We may want to think of ourselves as being the chisel jawed top gun let’s light this candle stud, pushing the physical and mental boundaries of human capabilities every time we strap in our Cessnas and get ready to blast off / cat shoot off the runway.

But if we have enough mental and physical capability to pass the checkride and get a drivers license we’re really OK to fly our 4 seater at 125 kts to Bob’s Airport BBQ 30 minutes away.
 
WDD said:
I honestly think this boils down to -

GA pilots flying under Basic Med limitations are not quite that special. We may want to think of ourselves as being the chisel jawed top gun let’s light this candle stud, pushing the physical and mental boundaries of human capabilities every time we strap in our Cessnas and get ready to blast off / cat shoot off the runway.

But if we have enough mental and physical capability to pass the checkride and get a drivers license we’re really OK to fly our 4 seater at 125 kts to Bob’s Airport BBQ 30 minutes away.
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…and to fly Bonanzas and Meridians and Pilatuses through thunderstorms and ice, and…

If you want to limit BasicMed to 100-it 4-seaters and $100 BBQ runs, contact your congresscritter and get the rule changed.

If you want to make valid comparisons, don’t intentionally exclude a large portion of what the rule making is intended to allow.
 
AKiss20 said:
If no one knows how many there are, how can we possibly do a meaningful statistical analysis?
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Other than looking at the fleet and saying x% of aircraft can be flown under the S.P. rules and they make up y% of all accidents, you can't. But that doesn't account for VFR vs IFR, Sunday putzers vs. hard core transportation, light wing loading vs heavy, etc. etc. etc.
 
I still argue that if I can go to my local Hertz and rent a 15 passenger van, load it with my kids hockey team and drive 70mph across the country within 2ft of opposite direction traffic, I should be allowed to fly my under 6000# (now under 12,000#) 7 person airplane without having to undergo an initial unsubstantiated Class 3 medical "evaluation" that is developed by a bunch of bureaucrats with zero skin in the game. There is absolutely no good reason why we should have to get a 3rd class prior to using Basic Med.
 
Half Fast said:
Yes. When Basic Med pilots complete the required online course, the record of completion goes to the FAA and shows in the airman database.
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Thanks. I downloaded the current airman registry, and each entry includes two columns on Basic Med: "BASIC MED COURSE DATE" and "BASIC MED CMEC DATE" The data dictionary provided in the FAA download products does not include definitions for these, but it seems generally self-evident. The "Course Date" is often newer than the "CMEC Date," so I expect it reflects the 24-month cycle for the education course, while the CMEC date is that of the checklist that has to be updated every 48 months.

Out of 577,639 entries in the pilot database, 44,056 have entries in the Basic Med columns. That's about 7.62% of the pilot population.

I don't download the airman registry every year (like I do the aircraft one), but I do have the 2021 registry. The percentage there is slightly lower, 7.59%.

Since the CMEC apparently needs to be re-done every four years, we can't rely on that for a year-to-year summary. However, the past three years seem to show about 500 pilots are added to the Basic Med rolls every year.

2021: 10,229
2022: 10,691
2023: 11,029

Ron Wanttaja
 
MauleSkinner said:
…and to fly Bonanzas and Meridians and Pilatuses through thunderstorms and ice, and…

If you want to limit BasicMed to 100-it 4-seaters and $100 BBQ runs, contact your congresscritter and get the rule changed.

If you want to make valid comparisons, don’t intentionally exclude a large portion of what the rule making is intended to allow.
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I respectfully disagree. I think this is a straw man here. Basic Med pilots are not a core group of pilots flying FIKA Pilatuses. Even if a few were, they are not but for the grace of god having gotten a 3rd class sometime in the last 15 or so years crashing left and right.
 
WDD said:
I respectfully disagree. I think this is a straw man here. Basic Med pilots are not a core group of pilots flying FIKA Pilatuses. Even if a few were, they are not but for the grace of god having gotten a 3rd class sometime in the last 15 or so years crashing left and right.
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So pointing out the allowances of the rule making is a straw man. Gotcha.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So pointing out the allowances of the rule making is a straw man. Gotcha.
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No. Suggesting that Basic Med pilots are generally flying 250 kt turboprops and that they would all crash if they didn’t have at some point in the past a 3rd class is.

Hey - I get your point. I don’t agree, and you don’t agree with mine. I feel confident that the data show we’d be fine with Basic Med without a 3rd class sometime in the past 15 years. You don’t. We don’t have to agree.
 
WDD said:
I feel confident that the data show we’d be fine with Basic Med without a 3rd class sometime in the past 15 years.
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I similarly feel confident, but not so much from the data since we don't have (and won't have) a dataset without 3rd class medicals. I feel confident because the 3rd class pass rate is so high I don't think it's screening out very many problems anyway.

Over the past 3 years, the number of denials of third-class airman medical certificates has ranged from approximately 2000 to 2500 per year based on approximately 135,000 to 140,000 applications for third-class airman medical certification per year. Most of these denials resulted because of a failure of the applicants to provide sufficient information for the FAA to make a favorable decision.​

OKC does nothing to improve the health of airmen; it's merely a bureaucratic data-gathering operation. If you eventually get all the tests they want and send them all the documentation they want and spend an exorbitant amount of money on things that aren't medically necessary, you win a class 3 as a prize. None of that makes the pilot any healthier or more fit to fly.

The class 3 mostly screens out those who are unable or unwilling to pay to jump through all the FAA's hoops. As quoted above, most of the ~2000 denials are not because of an unfavorable medical decision; they're because of not jumping through all the bureaucratic hoops.

Take away the hoop jumping and the airmen are still just as healthy. If the class 3 requirement for BM were eliminated and all of those ~2000 denials were allowed to fly, the change in the number of airplane crashes wouldn't move the needle statistically.
 
WDD said:
No. Suggesting that Basic Med pilots are generally flying 250 kt turboprops and that they would all crash if they didn’t have at some point in the past a 3rd class is.
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There’s your problem…you’re reading arguments into my post that don’t exist.
 
Half Fast said:
OKC does nothing to improve the health of airmen; it's merely a bureaucratic data-gathering operation. If you eventually get all the tests they want and send them all the documentation they want and spend an exorbitant amount of money on things that aren't medically necessary, you win a class 3 as a prize. None of that makes the pilot any healthier or more fit to fly.
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OKC isn’t supposed to do anything to improve the health of airmen. That’s what PCPs are for.

OKC is merely a gatekeeper.
 
WDD said:
No. Suggesting that Basic Med pilots are generally flying 250 kt turboprops
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Of course not. The current rules don't allow it. The new rules DO allow it, though, and that is the point of this thread.
 
wanttaja said:
Out of 577,639 entries in the pilot database, 44,056 have entries in the Basic Med columns. That's about 7.62% of the pilot population.
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Can you redo your calculations to exclude professional pilots? A good proxy for them would be pilots that have an ATP/Commercial license with a current First or Second Class medical.
Because Basic Med really only affects those of us flying GA in small airplanes.
You might also want to do a separate calculation and exclude from your Basic Med totals those of us who have both and just let the Third Class expire and fly Basic Med for the last two years.
 
What conditions are there that a Class 3 exam would detect but a BM exam wouldn’t, which are known to have caused pilot incapacitation? That’s really what this boils down to.
 
MauleSkinner said:
OKC isn’t supposed to do anything to improve the health of airmen. That’s what PCPs are for.

OKC is merely a gatekeeper.
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EXACTLY! And that gate keeps out a very small percentage, mostly for paperwork reasons. The gate is virtually wide open already, it's just expensive and time consuming, so eliminating the gate altogether would have a neglibible impact on the number of plane crashes.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
What conditions are there that a Class 3 exam would detect but a BM exam wouldn’t, which are known to have caused pilot incapacitation? That’s really what this boils down to.
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I don't think there are any. The application form and the exam are the same.

The difference is that with Class 3 some bureaucrats in OKC get to review the documentation without ever actually seeing the airman, then make the applicant satisfy a bunch of red tape requirements.

Personally, I don't see how that results in safer pilots, at least not enough to matter.
 
Half Fast said:
I don't think there are any. The application form and the exam are the same.

The difference is that with Class 3 some bureaucrats in OKC get to review the documentation without ever actually seeing the airman, then make the applicant satisfy a bunch of red tape requirements.

Personally, I don't see how that results in safer pilots, at least not enough to matter.
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I can give you one theoretical:

The process of the Class 3 eliminates people who know that they can't pass it before they ever schedule the AME appointment. If all they had to do was convince their regular PCP, they would be far more likely to give it a shot and see if they could get away with it.
 
StraightnLevel said:
I can give you one theoretical:

The process of the Class 3 eliminates people who know that they can't pass it before they ever schedule the AME appointment. If all they had to do was convince their regular PCP, they would be far more likely to give it a shot and see if they could get away with it.
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Possibly, but I could argue that it's harder to convince the PCP who has been treating you for years and knows your history than to convince an AME you've just met.

OTOH, nothing says you have to see your PCP for Basic Med. You can see any physician you like.

Frankly, about the only maladies that truly make you unfit to fly a small private aircraft also make you unfit to drive a car. Sport Pilot rules only require a driver's license and we don't have a plague of medically-caused LSA crashes.
 
StraightnLevel said:
I can give you one theoretical:

The process of the Class 3 eliminates people who know that they can't pass it before they ever schedule the AME appointment. If all they had to do was convince their regular PCP, they would be far more likely to give it a shot and see if they could get away with it.
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What disease states are there that cause pilot incapacitation, don’t disqualify one from driving, and are likely to get past a PCP?
 
Half Fast said:
Frankly, about the only maladies that truly make you unfit to fly a small private aircraft also make you unfit to drive a car. Sport Pilot rules only require a driver's license and we don't have a plague of medically-caused LSA crashes.
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OneCharlieTango said:
What disease states are there that cause pilot incapacitation, don’t disqualify one from driving, and are likely to get past a PCP?
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ADHD and all other sorts of mental disorders.

Epilepsy.

COPD.

Asymptomatic cardiovascular issues. (This may not be caught by Class 3, but likely with Class 1).

Vision issues.

The fact that you can go to any doctor means that you can simply shop around until you get someone who either believes your story or who just doesn't care and signs you off. The above items (and others) will not prevent you from getting a driver's license....but should someone with any of these really fly a plane?
 
The FAA Class 3 is an albatross, but not for the reasons most if y’all think. The one thing it gives you is wide acceptance internationally. Most nations just use the ICAO first/second class medicals.

Drop the class 3 and the small number of pilots that use GA for international stuff will be limited to those countries that accept BM or they’ll have to jump to a Class 2.
 
StraightnLevel said:
ADHD and all other sorts of mental disorders.
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Which crash or incident are you aware of in which ADHD was a factor? The FAA’s stance on ADHD, especially in the current environment, where it is likely over-diagnosed and over-treated, is one of many defenses for BM without a previous Class 3. Other mental disorders are covered in BM.
StraightnLevel said:
Epilepsy.
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Covered in BasicMed. If your seizure disorder is poorly controlled, you can’t get a driver’s license.
StraightnLevel said:
COPD.
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Covered in BasicMed.
StraightnLevel said:
Asymptomatic cardiovascular issues. (This may not be caught by Class 3, but likely with Class 1).
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This conversation is about Class 3. What’s more, every year there are Class 1- certified airline pilots who suffer heart attacks in flight, strongly suggesting that the exam doesn’t accomplish what it purports to.
StraightnLevel said:
Vision issues.
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Which vision issues? Most of the general public thinks you have to have 20:20 vision to fly.
StraightnLevel said:
The above items (and others) will not prevent you from getting a driver's license....but should someone with any of these really fly a plane?
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Any of those, if severe enough to threaten immediate incapacitation, will keep you from driving.

I’ll say it again: medically speaking, flying just isn’t special.
 
TCABM said:
The FAA Class 3 is an albatross, but not for the reasons most if y’all think. The one thing it gives you is wide acceptance internationally. Most nations just use the ICAO first/second class medicals.

Drop the class 3 and the small number of pilots that use GA for international stuff will be limited to those countries that accept BM or they’ll have to jump to a Class 2.
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Agreed, and without ICAO changes I wouldn't eliminate the class 3 altogether. What I would like to see is the elimination of it as a prerequisite for Basic Med.

(Doesn't effect me as I already have Basic Med.)
 
TCABM said:
The FAA Class 3 is an albatross, but not for the reasons most if y’all think. The one thing it gives you is wide acceptance internationally. Most nations just use the ICAO first/second class medicals.

Drop the class 3 and the small number of pilots that use GA for international stuff will be limited to those countries that accept BM or they’ll have to jump to a Class 2.
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Supposedly, there’s a move afoot to get ICAO to adopt something along the lines of BM. Otherwise, you’re right. Since Mexico and the Bahamas already accept BM, Canada remains as the only relevant holdout for most Americans. Not all, of course, but most. I’d bet there are a lot of people who’d fly from the lower 48 to Alaska if Canada accepted BM.
 
Dang. Had no idea Basic Med was as a much of a hot bottom topic as cats vs dogs, high vs low low wing, Cirrus vs rest of the world, etc.
 
JScarry said:
Can you redo your calculations to exclude professional pilots? A good proxy for them would be pilots that have an ATP/Commercial license with a current First or Second Class medical.
Because Basic Med really only affects those of us flying GA in small airplanes.
You might also want to do a separate calculation and exclude from your Basic Med totals those of us who have both and just let the Third Class expire and fly Basic Med for the last two years.
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Looked at the data a different way, some of the totals might be slightly different. This run, I had a total of 43,386 entries.

Of about the total entries, 22.8% did not list a prior FAA medical.

Looking just at the indicated ratings, 61.8% had Private, 24.5% Commercial, and 10.3% ATP. The database actually lists CFIs separately, I have combined them with the Commercial.

Looking at those higher ratings whose Class 1/2 medicals have expired, about 17.1% of the total had Commercial tickets and 10.3% ATP.

About 66% of the pilots have expired third class medicals. About one out of seven of those had their medicals expire in the past two years.

Ron Wanttaja
 
OneCharlieTango said:
What disease states are there that cause pilot incapacitation, don’t disqualify one from driving, and are likely to get past a PCP?
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Prostate cancer?

No problem driving, but the FAA said I was apparently an unacceptable risk of sudden incapacitation and ineligible to fly even though it was treated and eliminated. But through the kindness of their blessed little hearts they gave me an SI and told me to check back in often.

Personally, I disagree with them, as does every real doctor I have ever met.

Also, I think the FAA medical is no value added at all.
 
Brad W said:
just spit ballin' here...maybe Marth Lunken, or something similar???
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Probably more like dweebs who see a plane on FlightAware doing over 250 below 10 grand, they’re not pilots and don’t know the difference between indicated airspeed and groundspeed, and report the pilot to the FAA. The FAA is then obligated to initiate an investigation, even if the extent of it is immediately closing the file. Now if they would just expand the ban to include investigations based on YouTube videos.
 
ateamer said:
Probably more like dweebs who see a plane on FlightAware doing over 250 below 10 grand, they’re not pilots and don’t know the difference between indicated airspeed and groundspeed, and report the pilot to the FAA. The FAA is then obligated to initiate an investigation, even if the extent of it is immediately closing the file. Now if they would just expand the ban to include investigations based on YouTube videos.
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Fortunately, self-incrimination by YouTube is voluntary!
 
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