My tailwheel training impressions..

I’m going out on a limb to say the OP is looking at the ground too close to the nose. Once you round out, look to the end of the runway, and expect to get the exact same sight picture you had on the takeoff roll.
 
I need to keep the tail up until there is no more pitch authority and then push the stick back.
Since nobody has picked this nit: place the tail down gently but positively.

You know the saying about flying the plane until it's tied down? Things can suddenly get interesting if you run out of control authority and the wind is variable.
coyote.jpg
 
I'm just jumping in to say to the OP that I think you're being too hard on yourself. 3 lessons and you don't have a feel for wheel landings yet? I learned tailwheel first, in a cub, and it was more than 30 for me before wheel landings made any sense. Three point much simpler for me.
 
Now is the time to learn not after the endorsement you need to be able to land with crosswind and wheel landings or like others find out just how fast the tail wants to swap ends and wreck the plane. Tail wheel or conventional aircraft you only relax when it's tied down after the flight.
 
My first tail dragger was also my first twin. All wheel landings. Pax had bets on number of bounces per landing.
 
I just checked my logbook. I started out in a J-3 Cub from the very beginning. I logged 61 landings with an instructor before my first solo flight. Probably a mix of about 40 three point and 20 wheel landings, although I didn’t log the distinction. My logbook presently shows 566 landings in tailwheel aircraft. I’m still waiting for a good one. Keep at it. It just clicks at some point where you are always able to land safely, and then you can start your lifelong journey toward perfection.
 
Don't know if there is much to add but the Citabria spring gear is one of the harder ones to get in the beginning. You just can't feel when it touches because it's too soft and it has no damping on the rebound once you've pushed it too far. You'll get it eventually, as said one day it just clicks, but at first it's tough so don't beat yourself up too much about it.
 
I used to teach tailwheel transition courses in one of two Citabrias. It was basically a 5 hour syllabus.

Hour 1 was mostly aircraft familiarization in the practice area. Necessary in that most students had never flown a tandem aircraft or one with a stick. The panel on the Citabria is much lower than most and it takes a while to get used to the view in a level attitude.

Hour 2 was almost entirely 3 pt landings.

Hour 3 was mostly 3 pt landings, with maybe a demo wheel landing at the end.

Hour 4 was mostly wheel landings.

Hour 5 was polishing up whatever might need work. It was rare not to be able to do the sign off at the conclusion of that flight.

As an aside, it was common for very low time students to catch on pretty quickly, assuming their normal landings were close to “full stall”. And some high time pilots had a heck of a time, usually because they were unaccustomed to landing at or near stall speed.
 
My tailwheel instructor complimented me for knowing I had feet. He guessed that was because I had flown many different ultralight aircraft that require rudder work due to them having gobs of adverse yaw. He said many pilots don't realize they have feet because the planes they fly don't require the use of feet very much ...
 
I used to teach tailwheel transition courses in one of two Citabrias. It was basically a 5 hour syllabus.

Hour 1 was mostly aircraft familiarization in the practice area. Necessary in that most students had never flown a tandem aircraft or one with a stick. The panel on the Citabria is much lower than most and it takes a while to get used to the view in a level attitude.

Hour 2 was almost entirely 3 pt landings.

Hour 3 was mostly 3 pt landings, with maybe a demo wheel landing at the end.

Hour 4 was mostly wheel landings.

Hour 5 was polishing up whatever might need work. It was rare not to be able to do the sign off at the conclusion of that flight.

As an aside, it was common for very low time students to catch on pretty quickly, assuming their normal landings were close to “full stall”. And some high time pilots had a heck of a time, usually because they were unaccustomed to landing at or near stall speed.
The wing on a Citabria has its chordline at 12° to the ground surface. I measured it. Stall is at about 17°. In the flare for a three-point, the aircraft is travelling nearly level to the surface, so the wing is nowhere near stall. Aircraft designers don't want the wing stalling in the flare; that raises the possibility of a wing- or nose-drop. Flaring high and plonking down hard is due to sink, not stall. "Full-stall" landings are not full stall.

One can take off in most taildraggers, including Citabrias, with the airplane in the three-point attitude, tailwheel still on the ground with the mains. It couldn't take off if the wing was stalled.
 
Not to be argumentative, or to derail, but…

In my Citabrias, I could often roll on the tailwheel slightly first, conditions permitting. Then, as the stick came back the final few inches to the stop, the mains would drop maybe 6” to a foot. So, it seemed like any further increase in angle of attack was resulting in a decrease in lift, which is kinda the definition of a stall. Regardless, when a pilot says “full stall landing”, it gets the idea across, whether it’s technically correct or not.
 
The tailwheel spring on a C-185 is a slightly bent tube. New ones are roughly $5000. I don’t know anyone with a Skywagon who intentionally lands tailwheel-first.
 
In my Citabrias, I could often roll on the tailwheel slightly first, conditions permitting. Then, as the stick came back the final few inches to the stop, the mains would drop maybe 6” to a foot. So, it seemed like any further increase in angle of attack was resulting in a decrease in lift, which is kinda the definition of a stall.
More like pushing down on the tail, which can’t go down any further because of the earth, doesn’t allow an increase in AOA, while the drag of the tailwheel reduces airspeed, reducing lift at the same AOA.
 
The tailwheel spring on a C-185 is a slightly bent tube. New ones are roughly $5000. I don’t know anyone with a Skywagon who intentionally lands tailwheel-first.
And that is a function of scarcity, not that one technique is better or worse.
 
And that is a function of scarcity, not that one technique is better or worse.
If a technique is more likely to break something, wouldn’t that make it worse?
 
If a technique is more likely to break something, wouldn’t that make it worse?
Not necessarily. If I was going to be in an unplanned field in a 180 or 185, I'm probably three-pointing it anyway and taking the risk on that 5K part.
 
The wing on a Citabria has its chordline at 12° to the ground surface. I measured it. Stall is at about 17°...
OP said it was a Decathlon which has a different wing. It may have the same angle of incidence but it has a slightly higher stall speed. Not sure why his instructor wants him to learn wheel landings first, in most small GA taildraggers there's never any actual need to do wheel landings other than to keep the tailwheel off of rocks. The tail has to come down sooner or later, no getting around that. I originally learned to fly in a J3 Cub and though it was over 60 years ago I don't recall there being any todo about wheel landings, not sure if we ever actually even did them to be honest.
 
The tailwheel spring on a C-185 is a slightly bent tube. New ones are roughly $5000. I don’t know anyone with a Skywagon who intentionally lands tailwheel-first.
It's hard to. That horizontal stab and elevator are in pretty strong ground effect in the three-point attitude, and you don't have enough pitch control to force the tail lower unless the CG is way aft.
 
Not necessarily. If I was going to be in an unplanned field in a 180 or 185, I'm probably three-pointing it anyway and taking the risk on that 5K part.
That $5k part is cheap compared to the tailwheel itself. When I retired six years ago, the locking McCauley tailwheel assembly for the 185 was $13K.

I never saw a bent or damaged 180 or 185 tailspring rod. Maybe it happens, but compared to the leaf-spring tailspring assemblies on other airplanes, it's really strong. The leaf-types just get hammered down and bent out of shape so that the tailwheel steering axis is messed up, and it will shimmy.
 
I have found wide variance in how Citabria family aircraft fly and land. Not surprising since they are individually rigged and each one has slightly different washout and CG. Some will do TW first, others won't. My current Decathlon used to land TW first before I restored it; now it won't.
 
1) When you gently roll on the tailwheel first, there’s precious little weight on it and no undue stress. Then again, if dropped in after misjudging height, yes it can put a lot of weight on the tailwheel. DAMHIK. Then again, tailwheel springs were relatively cheap for a Citabria - don’t know if they still are. I doubt it.

2) Back before LED’s, landing lights tended to burn out ALL THE TIME. More than once I had to land at night in a crosswind with the landing light out. The “black hole” effect makes it very difficult to judge height exactly, and in that case I would always come in a tad fast and ease it down and ease it down and CHIRP! Wheel landing accomplished. Far safer than possibly stalling 4 or 5 feet in the air. But other than that, I far preferred - and prefer - “3 point” landings.
 
The leaf-types just get hammered down and bent out of shape so that the tailwheel steering axis is messed up, and it will shimmy.
But they are also dirt cheap to replace. About 200 bucks for a Decathlon the last time I bought a set.
 
It may have the same angle of incidence but it has a slightly higher stall speed.
A higher stall speed at the same incidence implies a lower stall angle. Maybe 15 or 16° instead of 17°.
in most small GA taildraggers there's never any actual need to do wheel landings other than to keep the tailwheel off of rocks.
Crosswinds. It's easier to get down safely in a crosswind with a wheel landing. You are touching down at a higher airspeed, which means that the relative wind is coming at you from a lesser angle, more from ahead, and yaw control is better. Get the upwind main on, hold lots of aileron into the wind, then as speed decays the downwind wheel touches, still with lots of aileron, and then the tail has to come down as the rudder loses authority and you need the tailwheel.

I taught a lot of taildragging.
 
The leaf-types just get hammered down and bent out of shape so that the tailwheel steering axis is messed up, and it will shimmy.
Part of the Citabria preflight was to check the distance between the tailwheel and the bottom of the rudder. I recall that less than one “hand’s width” was when spring replacement started to become prudent.
 
Back before LED’s, landing lights tended to burn out ALL THE TIME.
Yup. The incandescent landing lights were rated for 25 operating hours. For a while I was getting as little as four hours out of them, but that was in the vibrating 172 cowlings. The LED lights fixed that. And the students and instructors loved them.
 
Part of the Citabria preflight was to check the distance between the tailwheel and the bottom of the rudder. I recall that less than one “hand’s width” was when spring replacement started to become prudent.
I told the instructors and students that I wanted to know immediately when the tailwheel started to shimmy. It's primarily dynamic imbalance, but I dynamically balanced those tailwheels. When they shimmied after that, it was due to the tailspring flattening out and tilting the tailwheel pivot axis forward of vertical. That shimmy will fatigue and break a Citabria's tailpost. BTDT. Expensive.
 
Opposite of the 185, I almost always 3-point the RV7 because it doesn’t have a lot of prop clearance. It’s all about protecting the weakest link. And, in the case of the 185, visibility. I can’t see squat over the nose in the 3-point attitude.
 
A higher stall speed at the same incidence implies a lower stall angle. Maybe 15 or 16° instead of 17°.

Crosswinds. It's easier to get down safely in a crosswind with a wheel landing. You are touching down at a higher airspeed, which means that the relative wind is coming at you from a lesser angle, more from ahead, and yaw control is better. Get the upwind main on, hold lots of aileron into the wind, then as speed decays the downwind wheel touches, still with lots of aileron, and then the tail has to come down as the rudder loses authority and you need the tailwheel.

I taught a lot of taildragging.
Ask 10 instructors and you'll get 10 different answers to that.

I asked my old Decathlon partner, who learned to fly in a Champ in 1946 and had about 30K hours, much of it instructing TW. He was the FAA designated examiner for 709 check rides in taildraggers in South Florida.

His answer was to 3 point land in crosswinds, because you aren't fully under control until the tail wheel is planted, so might as well do that first.

Me personally, I am a believer in being equally good at both.
 
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On a Scott 3200, these little guys were a pain and broke with some regularity


The castering lock. They break when shimmy is tolerated for too long. They also chew up the inside of the steering arm during shimmy. I never liked the Scott tailwheels. Expensive, and the "shimmy damper" is basically a disc brake that makes precise steering difficult. The McCauley lockable wheel at least had some shimmy brake adjustment to it, but it was much more expensive than the expensive Scott.
 
:yeahthat:

This is a key point and I believe many times pilots learning to fly tailwheel are led astray by the whole "dancing on the pedals" thingy. I've had landings where it took a good bit of footwork to keep the tail behind the nose and others where I hardly needed to move the rudder pedals at all. Just need to give the plane what it needs to do what you want it to do ...

It may all be in the terminology and and is also a dependent on the type of airplane
I usually call it marching, left, right, left, right. What you are trying to do is keep you feet making small corrections. True some airplane and fact a lot will let you get a away with just reacting but, new tailwheel pilots are so used to doing nothing with their feet that they are way to late to put an input in, or over do it when they do.
The way I explain it is there is a dead zone in the rudder where you can move the rudder back and forth and the nose won't move. you want to be moving the pedals back and forth inside this dead zone just barely moving the nose, if at all. As the instructor I should be able to feel you moving the pedals, but not seeing the nose moving. You can likely feel when a bit of pressure builds on the pedal on the left and right side of the dead zone. Especially slow tailwheel airplanes this dead zone get bigger as it slows down so the dead zone rudder input gets bigger as the plane slows down which requires a larger rudder movement to make corrections.. You also tend to subconsciously make small correction each time the rudder pedal touches the edge of the dead zone.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
My comments to the OP would be there are at least 4 main types of Tail wheel landings, what type are you doing?
Power ON, Tail Low (slow)
Power OFF, Tail Low (slow)
Power ON, Tail High (fast)
Power OFF, Tail High (fast)

I barely call the tail low wheel landings a wheel landing, it is more like a modified 3 point where when you touch you bring the tail up. You do get some torque effect wanting the plane to turn left as you bring the tail up, but you will quickly learn to anticipate this.

I prefer the tail High Wheel landings, you just fly the airplane down the run way in about a level flight attitude and keep holding it off the runway (gently pulling back on the stick) until it touches. The faster you are and the softer you touch the less forward stick you need to use.

Maybe your instructor will let you try some different styles. I had an instructor that tried to teach me wheel landings in a C-120, I never did get it until she got out of the airplane I recall she wanted me to approach slow, and I wanted to approach power off so I would end up with a high sink rate and tail low touch down. If I had carried power she probably wouldn't have objected and I would have done much better wheel landings. Once she got out I added 15mph to my power off approach speed and I could grease the wheel landings every time.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

PS. With Power off wheel landing you can come in quite fast. IIRC in the Decathlon you should on final it at least 80mph power off, can be slower with power, But 90 or 100mph will work just fine power off. It will slow down as you round out and level off. The propeller is an excellent brake at those speeds and you can am a bit short of the runway to dissipate the extra speed as you level off. Then you have lots of time to gently set the plane on the runway in about a level flight attitude. If you nose is really in a nose down attitude then you need to wait a few seconds for it slow down enough to set it on.
 
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Ask 10 instructors and you'll get 10 different answers to that.

I asked my old Decathlon partner, who learned to fly in a Champ in 1946 and had about 30K hours, much of it instructing TW. He was the FAA designated examiner for 709 check rides in taildraggers in South Florida.

His answer was to 3 point land in crosswinds, because you aren't fully under control until the tail wheel is planted, so might as well do that first.

Me personally, I am a believer in being equally good at both.

The designers of my airplane highly recommend three point landings but these planes aren't difficult to wheel land, but like most I'm better at three pointers.

The plane has good rudder authority and a direct steer tailwheel so getting the tail wheel planted gives a lot of control. As to how it should be done I'll throw this out. It is an article that I read a few years ago.

FWIW: https://rareaircraft.com/landing-the-airplane/
 
designers of my airplane highly recommend three point landings but these planes aren't difficult to wheel land, but like most I'm better at three pointers.
Maule is the same way, although they say it IS difficult to wheel land, as the main gear are further forward than a lot of taildraggers. Somewhere I’ve probably still got a fax from Ray Maule stating that they recommend against wheel landings per 61.31(i).

I normally did wheel landings in mine, simply because I’ve had too many tailwheels fail. I didn’t find them very difficult, and my nephew managed to pull off a perfect one when he was 2 1/2. :rofl: The little turd.
 
like most I'm better at three pointers.
My habit is to do two landings, one of each type, every time I arrive at my home drome.

I've gone several mph past max demonstrated XW component in 3 point attitude without any problems. If I ever run out of control authority, I've got the wheel landing in my playbook. But you better be comfortable with differential braking. One might even say you should be ready to "dance".

OTOH I love landing on one wheel and keeping the other up for a while. No good reason, just fun.

If you really want to see an argument, get a couple of Pitts guys going on wheel landings.
 
my nephew managed to pull off a perfect one when he was 2 1/2. :rofl: The little turd.
I have long held that, no matter how good you are at something, there is a 12-year-old girl somewhere out there who is better than you. Sometimes, the 12-year-old girl is your 2-1/2-year-old nephew.
 
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